The ill-loved Confederate flag flies in deluded pride at the South Carolina state capitol.
Attached to its flagpost by chains.
Image by Reuters, h/t Daily Kos.
Stuff you couldn’t make up dept.
By James Wimberley 5165015 Commentshttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.samefacts.com%2F2015%2F06%2Fculture-and-civil-society%2Fstuff-you-couldnt-make-up-dept%2FStuff+you+couldn%27t+make+up+dept.2015-06-20+15%3A52%3A29James+Wimberleyhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.samefacts.com%2F%3Fp%3D51650
FiddlinBill says
All Ms Haley needed was a hacksaw and possibly a fork lift. She is the governor. Such could have been procured in short order.
Matt Mangels says
I need advice from people smarter than me on how to respond to people who matter-of-factly state that this flag just stands for Southern Pride and "has nothing to do with racism" (yes I have heard that from people). I usually end up geting so angry I can't articulate a coherent argument.
J_Michael_Neal says
Refuse to engage. "I will not be the Sherpa for your climb up Mount Stupid."
http://www.thetattooedprof.com/archives/407
JamesWimberley says
I have no reason to think I am smarter than you, but it might be worth concentrating on the more objective aspect of slavery, which in a modest way was the link I was trying to underline in my post. The Confederacy seceded in defence of slavery against the abolitionist threat in the North, "the worst cause for which anyone ever fought" in Grant's words. The flag was an emblem of men waging war to keep slaves; slavery was abolished in the USA because they lost. The revival of the flag was part of the history of Southern resistance to the CIvil Rights movement, a second losing battle to defend the Jim Crow system of systematic discrimination.
Now you and I know that racism was a crucial part of the justification for the enslavement of Africans against the egalitarian pressure of Christianity, which has made slavery a problematic institution ever since St. Paul. Logically you don't have to be a racist to keep slaves, and wealthy Romans kept mainly white slaves. Plantation-owners were defending their property as well as their seignorial status. I can't see much of a non-racist rationale for opposition to civil rights, though perhaps the fears of poor whites about job competition and again status may have come into it.
It may well be true that many Southerners cherish the flag as part of a phony sentimentalised Gone-with-the-Wind image of the Old South, and a discredited narrative that the Civil War was about states' rights. They are not necessarily racists themselves, but it helps. What would your interlocutors think of a group of SS veterans commemorating their valour at the Third Battle of Kharkov, wearing the SS bolts? On second thoughts, don't raise this!
snideissue says
My great-grandfather fought for the Confederacy, enlisting with a slave and a cook. We didn't talk about it very much, and when we did we talked mostly about how remarkable it was that we were that closely linked to such a momentous event in American history. He lived with my grandparents in the house my Mom grew up in, dying when she was 9 years old. One thing that was never said was that he was brave and honorable - he may have been, but that was beside the point - he was on the wrong side, and thank God the good guys won.
My Mom knew him as a man with a fierce temper and dangerous cane. And, he was a stone-cold racist. How could he not be? Virtually every elected official in Texas was a segregationist, or pretended to be (and there were very few pretenders). There were lynchings and no doubt other acts of terror printed in the local paper. If my great-grandfather had repented his youthful service, and especially if he had advocated for racial equality or even reconciliation, he would have been so unique that he might have been worthy of a magazine article. (In a national, not Texas-based magazine; in Texas his life would be in danger, and his social standing obliterated.)
And that's the thing. If after the Civil War, southerners had gradually come to see the error of their ways and embrace racial equality, it would be a little easier to forgive them for their nostalgia for the Confederacy. It would be a little easier to accept "we're honoring their bravery and valor, not the cause they fought for." But that's not what happened - the South was still fighting the Civil War when my great-grandpa died in the thirties; it was still fighting the Civil War when I started elementary school in the fifties; it was still fighting the Civil War when Strom Thurmond won his last Senate race in 1996. To claim otherwise is disingenuous, to say the least. The Civil War will last as long as the flag is treated with respect, not contempt. Throwing the stars and bars in a trashcan won't in itself end the war, but it's an important step. Until then, "the past isn't dead, it isn't even past" to paraphrase Faulkner.
JamesWimberley says
The US South is not alone in having artificially long memories, A part of the French Right is still not reconciled to the Revolution of 1789. I was at La Baule in the Vendée on 14 July 1989. Municipal fireworks, but no street parties or other participatory celebration. Alsace, in spite on speaking a German dialect, was quite different: for instance there's a rousing annual torchlit parade and bal populaire every year at Mutzig. Alsatian peasants knew that their old seigneurs were just waiting over the Rhine for the Revolution to fail and to come and take their land back. The record (outside religions, which remember for millennia) is probably held by the Serbs, whose national identity is bound up with the defeat in Kosovo in 1389.
snideissue says
I replied earlier, with too much prolixity, and can't tell if the comment got eaten or is just awaiting moderation. Here's a different, more pithy take.
I have contributed to Al-Qaeda. I hate their terrorism, but they need money to take of Jihadists' widows and orphans, and who will tell me that looking after the welfare of widows and orphans is a bad thing? I give money to ISIS. I don't like the beheadings one bit, but they also build schools and hospitals — are you opposed to education and healthcare? I give money to Hamas for the same reason, even though I wish they'd stop firing those rockets and spreading terror. I've contributed to Nicolas Maduro so he'll have armed-protection in case someone attempts a coup, because I don't believe a head of state should be murdered or deposed by violence. I contribute to defense funds for domestic terrorists - white supremacist or black panther or weatherman, everyone in America is entitled to a fair trial with competent counsel.
Sure, you could look at all that and think I must support the predominant aims of the causes I fund, but can you really see inside my heart? Don't judge me by my visible actions, judge me by my subjective impression of myself. If people who don't like terrorism, mass murder, despotism and violent civil insurrection are offended by my choices, they just need to get over it. I'm a good guy, and it's wrong for you to think otherwise.
That's what defenders of the flag are saying, but it sounds pretty disingenuous to me.
byomtov11 says
My reply is this:
Pride in the achievements of southerners, in southern culture, should encompass all southerners. The flag does not do that. It does not stand for southern culture. It stands for the very dark side of southern history - nothing remotely to be proud of.
pdgpa says
That flag is protected by a very strict state law; it must fly at the Confederate memorial site on the state Capitol grounds 24/7/365 and cannot even be lowered to half staff. It would take a 2/3 majority of both houses of the state legislature to change that. Those were the terms of the "compromise" that got it taken down from the S.C. Capitol dome a few years back. So, yes, Gov Haley could go up on a forklift with a hacksaw and take it down, if she wanted to commit civil disobedience. I would support that, but don't misunderstand what it would entail.
Cockatoo says
The speech act they perform is a wish rather than a statement of fact. Many Southerners feel a local pride that has nothing to do with racism, and would like to continue using the Confederate flag to express it. The correct question to ask them is not about the meaning of the flag, but about the feelings it evokes. They may well be aware that many people see it as a symbol of racism, and may even accept to remove it from public areas.
FiddlinBill says
The top post at Sadly No should give you some "ammunition," Matt.
noseeum says
Yes of course the flag is an affront to Americans everywhere. Besides its racist overtones, it’s a flag of rebellion against the country you currently live in and claim to be loyal to! How is it acceptable to honor this?
Even more infuriating, those that support the Confederate flag tend to be the same people who think of themselves as “real Americans” while us Northern liberals are destroying this wonderful country. Really? A true American thinks talk of secession is patriotic? Disobeying the laws of the federal government is patriotic? In what world?
The federal government actually pays for some Confederate memorials. That’s insanity.
The post war forgive and forget response from the North allowed the culture that led to the war in the first place to persist through to this day unfortunately.
AnBheal says
Matt, Ta Nehisi, as usual, nails it as well: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/…
JamesWimberley says
Snap. I did link to Coates' fine piece in the post, but too obliquely.
pdgpa says
My attempt to provide a statutory link for the "material support" statute has failed over some html issue. The cite is 18 U.S.C. sec. 2339B.